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Rastlin Majere
New Member
USA
80 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2004 : 07:02:53
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well freinds, it seems Elminster takes the gold in the race of mortal magi (bah!). However, it sparkes a new point in my mind, Elminster vs. Raistlin as a Diety.
In this aspect i do belive that ultimatly , Raistlin has the upper hand. Lets not forget that, if we do take Elminster and Raistlin at their most powerful points in the books, Raist is a god, Destroying other gods. now, i dont know how powerful the gods of Krynn are as opposed to the gods in FR. but, i'd say killing other gods is a mighty feat!
(and i do understand the fact that, raistlin being a god was just a VERY possible out come in the fate of Krynn)
"I will do this. Nothing in my life matters except this. I am born in this moment, and if i fail, I will die this moment."
- Raistlin Majere |
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Taelohn
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2004 : 05:24:13
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"What I was trying to get at is if you did a straight XP to XP comparison. Would the two be at relatively equal levels?"
Ah. No, their levels would stand the same, which would mean El would have more XP. Both games use the same XP system - it requires the exact same amount of XP to reach 20th level (or 30th, or 40th, or whatever) in Dragonlance as it does in Forgotten Realms, or vice versa.
Elminster would actually have even more XP than his level shows, as he would've incurred XP penalties for all his multiclassing. (Archmage doesn't count, as it's a prestige class, and his highest, Wizard, would be favoured, as he's a human - but his Fighter and Cleric levels are obviously more than 1 level different). Raistlin on the other hand had just one core class, Wizard (which would be favoured anyway, since he's a human and that's his highest), and other other classes he may have had (such as wizard of High Sorcery, Loremaster, or Archmage) do not incur penalities, being prestige classes.
It is important to note that Elminster is well over 1100 years older than Raistlin, though. For his age, Raistlin advanced in levels very quickly - Elminster wasn't even remotely that powerful when he was in his 20s.
"well freinds, it seems Elminster takes the gold in the race of mortal magi (bah!)"
Eh, I think some of the other FR characters could have a good chance against him, one on one. It depends on your definition of mortal, though - as stated, Elminster doesn't need to eat or sleep, and he doesn't age for most intents and purposes (he has begun to look old over the centuries, but that's about it). The reason he's so powerful now is that he's well over a thousand years old - if he had only a normal human lifespan, he wouldn't have been very memorable. The Simbul may not possess the same knowledge of magic as Elminster does, but for sheer destructive power I think she has an edge. Telemont, the Lord of the City of Shade, is on par with Elminster, and the lich Larloch, while not really active in the world, is well over 2000 years old and would range in around 46th-level now, according to Ed Greenwood. (Again, I'm not sure if the undead should qualify as mortal, though - but in which case, I'm not sure if Elminster or the other Chosen of Mystra should count as mortal, either, unless it's just meant to mean 'non-divine').
The odds of killing El in a one on one duel have another problem, however - he has allies that bail him out. In the novel 'Elminster in Hell', for instance, El is captured and tortured by an archdevil. When Mystra, Goddess of Magic, learns of this, she blasts into Hell and blows apart devils by the tens of thousands trying to find him, before she is forced to retreat. Later coming to his aid is Halaster Blackcloak (level 30), the Simbul (level 32). In another occurance, when in grave danger, 10 other epic characters and the goddess herself teleport in to help.
"Lets not forget that, if we do take Elminster and Raistlin at their most powerful points in the books, Raist is a god, Destroying other gods. now, i dont know how powerful the gods of Krynn are as opposed to the gods in FR. but, i'd say killing other gods is a mighty feat!"
This I would agree with. He may be powerful, but Elminster is not a god (nor does he wish to become one).
It's been established that the gods of Krynn are far less powerful when on the planet itself than they are on their own planes - that's why Raistlin had to lure Takhisis out in the first place.
The deities of the Realms certainly seem to wield more power on the Material Plane than their Dragonlance counterparts can, but when the Dragonlance gods are on their own realms, they should be roughly on par with Realms gods of equal (divine) rank.
Divine ranks range from 0 (quasi-deity), 1-5 (demigod), 6-10 (lesser god), 11-15 (intermediate god), 16-20 (greater god), 21+ (overgod).
An overgod is pretty much beyond statistics - examples would include Ao (who originally created Toril and its first deities, Shar and Selune), the Lady of Pain (who can bar other gods from Sigil), the Serpent (a source of magic mentioned by Greyhawk's lich-god Vecna), the Overlord of Hell (Asmodeus' true form, assuming he somehow regained his original powers), and perhaps Io (creator of dragons in Greyhawk/FR). Dragonlance did have an overgod, who had a part in the creation of various races, IIRC.
Takhisis, Gilean, and Paladine would be divine rank 19 - the top of the line for greater deities, on par with powerful creator gods from Forgotten Realms/Greyhawk like Moradin Soulforger and Corellon Larethian.
The coveted divine rank of 20 is almost never used by D&D gods - this is left for a creature more powerful than other gods, but not an overdeity. Greyhawk's Tharizdun would likely fall into this category, and perhaps Chaos would as well (being more powerful than Takhisis, Gilean, or Paladine, but not an overpower himself).
Other gods could have their divine ranks extrapolated downward from there, given their station.
When Raistlin defeated Takhisis, he apparently absorbed her divine power - so he would in essence be a DvR 19 greater deity. With this power, he was able to take on every other god - in their own planes, no less. They certainly wouldn't be foolish enough to follow him to the Material Plane, as Takhisis did. Sargonnas likely would've been the first opponent Raistlin faced, given his relationship with Takhisis. After that, he probably picked them all of one by one. Even if some tried to team up against him, his greater divine power (and likely greater magical power and intelligence) allowed him to prevail every time. Only Gilean and Paladine would have a really good chance, but he defeated each of them as well (Paladine being the final god he fought, if I remember correctly).
So, while Raistlin is not as powerful as Elminster, the deity Raistlin was definitely way out of El's league.
In that form, he could also handle any reinforcements Elminster might summon, as well. Infact, I think he'd have a slight edge over Mystra. While Mystra controls magic in the Realms, and can prevent people there from accessing it, that wouldn't apply to Raistlin. His magic came from the moon gods, and later himself - presumably, he became his own source of magical power after defeating Solinari/Lunitari/Nuitari.
Edited by - Taelohn on 02/23/2004 05:00:05 |
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Woggie
Senior Member
USA
1031 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2004 : 06:39:38
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Thanks T I appreciate the info. I really should start playin again. My 25th level fighter/cleric, and my dice could use some WD-40. 
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Darvick of Squal
Starting Member
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2004 : 09:36:20
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Perhaps we should use one character that existed both settings - Lord Soth!
I myself have not read the Forgoten Realms books, however; I think something could be drawn from such a link as Lord Soth.
How strong was Soth in both settings?
I recal Soth proclaiming Raistlin the most powerful ever or some such thing in Legends 1. Is there a comparison between Elminster and Soth available? Or an account of what happens to Soth's power when he traverses the planes?
Also, keep in mind that the difference in setting and not the difference in scale is important. Magic works differently in the Dragonlance setting as compared to the Forgotten Realms setting and perhaps Elminster being an angle would suffer the same consequences as Takhisis when on Krynn.
Another note: Raistlin defeated every challenge that he faced through-out his life - he just had a will to win. Also, much of his talent was a result of his cunning, however; he did possess some of the talent his mother had for seeing events in the future. It could be that Raistlin was indeed more than simply mortal to begin with!
How do Raistlin's hidden abilities play-out when he travels to a plane where magic flows more easily that on Krynn?
In AD&D a spellcaster's power changes from world-to-world. Thus, both characters would suffer or benifit from a change in scenery.
A note about the Gods of Krynn: In the First edition rules Takhisis's avatar had 999 hp and was described as being 20th level spellcaster in addition to being a five-headed dragon. These stats were used relative to 20th level as being the highest possible - retire after that or some such thing.
Caster levels: I recall reading Raistlin and Fistandantilus's levels from the Dragonlance book as being 26 and 23 respectively.
Sorry, I would quote more accurately if I still had my old stacks of D&D books - I have DM'd for 17 years however and so have noticed the change statistically from edition to edition...
One last note (I promiss - lol): Dragonlance AD&D books allow for "Renegade" wizards in the campaign, however; when comparing the old spell progressions between Wizards of the Black robes and Renegades - there is no contest. I believe Black robes are strong enough to cast there first 9th level spell at 16th level instead of 18th for Renegades. And, (deep breath) a 26th level Black robe would have something like 12 ninth level spells as compared to 3 for a Renagade (based on Combate and Tactics - High level campaigns).
Hope thjis helps...
"No, my brother, where I go, you cannot follow..." - Raistlin. |
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Rastlin Majere
New Member
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2004 : 20:54:09
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yeah, i remember Tiamat from the first Edition monster manual. (i belive thats what you ment by Tahkisis's avatar right?) they got her updated now in the Deities & Demigods handbook, shes realy not that powerful compaired to the other gods in the book.
"I will do this. Nothing in my life matters except this. I am born in this moment, and if i fail, I will die this moment."
- Raistlin Majere |
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Taelohn
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2004 : 21:24:05
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To my knowledge, Lord Soth never appeared in the Forgotten Realms setting; you may be thinking of Ravenloft.
In 2nd Edition, there were a number of setting crossovers. Ravenloft is a demiplane that yoinks people from all sorts of places - Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance all included. In 3rd Edition, a new version of Ravenloft was printed under licence by Sword & Sorcery - while they kept most of the same characters, they had to change names and histories and whatnot so as not to directly refer to any of the other settings - which was sort of weird if you knew where they were actually from.
For instance, there's a red wizard of Thay as one of the domain lords - but in the 3rd Edition printings, they never use the word Thay, or mention any of the Thayan Zulkirs by name, nor explain the significance of his tattoos, or even say that he was one of the red wizards - just that "the Red Wizard" was a nickname sometimes used for it. Likewise, there are references to deities such as Lathander and Bane - but only through titles, never by name.
Soth was taken to Ravenloft sometime after Legends, but returned to Krynn sometime before the War of Souls. If I remember correctly, Weis & Hickman were approached about using Soth in Ravenloft, and gave it their go-ahead, though they didn't really read anything about it. Later they (or it may have been just Hickman) expressed some annoyance over the use of "his" character in another setting (even though Soth was actually owned by TSR). Soth was returned to Krynn prior to the 3rd Edition (and swiftly killed off by Weis & Hickman shortly after, it is quite interesting to note).
While the 3rd Edition Realms have also taken a policy of pretending other worlds aren't around any more, this is foolish IMHO; it still states that elves, dwarves, and many other species are not native to Faerun, but came from another world (Greyhawk, though not mentioned anymore) via portals, along with the deities that created them. Many non-human deities exist in both Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms - Corellon, Moradin, Yondalla, Grummsh, Garl, Lolth, Tiamat, Bahamut, Asmodeus, Demogorgon, and a host of others.
The outer planes (and the creatures dwelling within), such as the Nine Hells of Baator or the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, are also consistant between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. Other places such as Sigil and Union serve as excellent means of travelling between one setting to the other. Dragonlance isn't as easily compatible - it doesn't have the Hells, it's Abyss is entirely different, and its pantheon shares no common deities or other cosmic entities.
However, crossovers between Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms were common in 2E, and Dragonlance crossovers did happen as well. Khelben the Younger lives in Greyhawk; Mordenkainen has visisted Waterdeep; Fistandantilus met with Elminster (and was advised to keep his meddling to his own world, as I recall); and on multiple occassions, Elminster, Mordenkainen, and Dalamar met and discussed various issues. (Raistlin was never involved in any crossovers, as far as I know - and for good reason, considering where he was).
"Is there a comparison between Elminster and Soth available? Or an account of what happens to Soth's power when he traverses the planes?"
Elminster is much more powerful than Soth, even though I don't think Soth's power should notably change on other planes. He was a death knight, and likely had 17+ hit dice - but that's no match for Elminster. He did say Raistlin was the most powerful, but presumably that was referring to Krynn only.
"Magic works differently in the Dragonlance setting as compared to the Forgotten Realms setting and perhaps Elminster being an angle would suffer the same consequences as Takhisis when on Krynn."
This is true, though I believe it's more the means in which they access it - given some time to become used to it, a caster should be able to pull off roughly the same things on another world as in their own. In the crossovers between Mordenkainen, Dalamar, and Elminster, all the characters' magic abilities seemed consistant amongst each other, regardless of which world they were on at the time. (Dalamar at 17th-level, Mordenkainen at 27th-level, Elminster at 35-45th-level).
"Raistlin defeated every challenge that he faced through-out his life - he just had a will to win."
That's very true. While people are comparing Elminster to Raistlin, one must remember that Elminster is powerful and healthy, well over a thousand years old, and has the aid of a greater goddess of magic on his side. Raistlin was sickly and frail, only 25 years old, and had to accomplish what he did on his own, even working against the gods. While I gave a long list of a great many characters of higher level than Raistlin (from the Realms), they were mostly all immortal - at the moment, I can't recall any other character becoming as powerful as Raistlin in so short a time (and with such odds against him). That in itself is quite impressive.
"How do Raistlin's hidden abilities play-out when he travels to a plane where magic flows more easily that on Krynn? In AD&D a spellcaster's power changes from world-to-world. Thus, both characters would suffer or benifit from a change in scenery."
I agree to an extent, but I think that given a little time to adjust, any difference in power just because of what setting they're in at the moment would be very small. That is assuming you just took some characters and swaped them to another setting - if they're of a given power level on their world, they should be pretty much the same on another. They would not just suddenly go up or down in level.
However, had Raistlin lived in Faerun instead of Krynn his whole life, it's possible he could've achieved a higher level overall, if it's at all easier to use Faerun's magic than Krynn's. But even then, it's not the magic that held him back - it's that he died so young. Like I said, getting to 26th level in 25 years is a feat that I can't recall any other character being able to do, in neither Dragonlance nor the Realms.
"Caster levels: I recall reading Raistlin and Fistandantilus's levels from the Dragonlance book as being 26 and 23 respectively."
Fair enough. That's almost exactly what I had guessed for Raistlin. I figured Fistandantilus as a little lower, but given his longevity (and claim to being the greatest mage on Krynn before Raistlin came along), that seems about right.
"yeah, i remember Tiamat from the first Edition monster manual. (i belive thats what you ment by Tahkisis's avatar right?) they got her updated now in the Deities & Demigods handbook, shes realy not that powerful compaired to the other gods in the book."
No. Tiamat is a different goddess entirely. While Paladine and Takhisis, while in dragon form, bear a strong resembalance to Bahamut and Tiamat (upon who they were based; Tiamat and Bahamut were in turn based on the legendary creatures of those same names), Paladine and Takhisis are completely different (and more powerful) entities.
The Deities & Demigods book does not contain any Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms deities (with some exceptions; see below); it has some of the major Greyhawk deities, then deities from ancient Greece, Egyptian gods, and Norse gods.
It only lists some of the more major deities of Greyhawk - in 2E, Greyhawk had a sickening number of powers (over a hundred), but they don't mention a lot of the lesser ones in 3E for the sake of simplicity. Note that Garl, Corellon, Lolth, Grummsh, Moradin, Yondalla, Tiamat and Bahamut are also Forgotten Realms deities, though - it's all the "human deities" that are different.
The Realms gods (detailed in the book 'Faiths & Pantheons') number around 60-70, all in all. Each race (ie. elf, dwarf, gnome, etc.) has a small pantheon of its own.
Unfortunately, I wouldn't say the stats in Deities & Demigods (or Faiths & Pantheons, and to a greater extent the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exalted Deeds) properly reflect the creatures therein - they're strong, sure, far beyond the abilities of most mortals to combat, but not quite enough. This is because they do not use the rules for epic levels (which are now open-gaming content anyway), such as epic feats, spells, etc. - it makes no sense that a god of magic who's been around for millions of years hasn't learned some new spell that every wizard over 20th level knows, just because he was printed in a manner that would allow people to use the gods without buying the Epic Level Handbook. More convenient for consumers, perhaps, but not exactly accurate when looking at the cosmos as a whole.
As for the cosmic entities within the Books of Vile Darkness/Exalted Deeds, they intentionally underpowered those guys to make them more "combatable", by level 20 PCs. Not only should creatures like Demogorgon or Asmodeus be well above the capabilities of even 50th level characters, they are supposed to be as powerful as greater gods in their own right, and should have a sort of virtual divine rank (to protect them from divine powers), if not a true divine rank themselves.
For my Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms games, all deities and archfiends and such are restatted at a more proper levels/HD/divine rank, going by older material and storyline information. And some common sense - greater gods are said to flee in terror from a creature, but according to the books a 30th level PC could beat it up? (I still wouldn't let anything, even a greater god, go over 100 HD, though).
Erm, anyway, back to Tiamat - she's a lesser god, not a greater god as Takhisis was. Though they do both share habits of taking the form of a five-headed chromatic dragon, or a seductive woman, I have no reason to suspect they were different aspects of the same entity - espically given that Tiamat is still alive.
While the goddess of evil dragons, she's perhaps more accurately regarded as an archdevil, for Tiamat acts as a sentinel for Asmodeus upon Avernus, the first layer of the Nine Hells.
Edited by - Taelohn on 02/23/2004 21:42:49 |
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Darvick of Squal
Starting Member
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2004 : 05:14:52
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I have been well educated, thank you!
Opps, that's right about Soth... sorry, got my planes crossed...
Based on your account it sounds like Dalamar in fact is the link we need to compare these two great entities.
Perhaps we should be judging these two based on two seperate elements:
1. Most power achieved.
2. Potential power achievable.
To further this idea I can start with Raistlin because I know him much better. Raistlin as you put it rose from level 1 to 26ish in about 25 years. We have also established that the same amount of experience is required to attain each level after 20 (actually its about 14th I believe). Given this rate of advance and the fact that a method existed for Raistlin to extend his life (through the Blood stone) it is concievable that in time Raistlin would become far more powerful than he ever achieved (the alternate time line aside).
So, sure Raistlin had potential - also keep in mind Raisltin's advance occured over about 19 years given that he began using Magic when he was six years old... Anyway, at this rate of advancement Rasitlin would turn 35 years of age when he achieved 40th level.
I must point out that Raistlin's ambition was fueled by anger and such against those who he felt jealous of - we must assume one of two things from this idea:
1. Raistlin goes insane and continues eating-up (conquering) everything in his way because he continually encounters greater powers that he feals he must dominate or,
2. Raistlin finally becomes satiated with the power he has achieved and settles down.
Of course we all know that Raistlin did make choices contrairy to both those scenerious - which proves only one thing - his heart was only two sizes too small!
Back to the idea of Dalamar being the link we need to compare the two. Perhaps you can better explain this than I but I will try to surmise something along these lines
I recall two instances of Dalamar judging his Shalafi's power:
1. That Raistlin was master of Past and Present and did indeed have the power to best Takhisis (Oh yeah, I recalled a diologue from somewhere where MW & TH describe the inspiration for Takhisis and Paladine coming from the other Gods - Tiamat and Bahamut but that they were only the foundation of the design).
2. Dalamar said he "knew" that he could defeat Raistlin when he was weakened from battling Taksisis before he came through the portal (which means that Raistlin was holding his own against Takhisis for a while before luring her to the Prime Material). However, it is know that in the alternate timeline Raisltin did defeat Dalamar and win it all. Also, I think we can assume that Crysania was able to defeat the hordes Takhisis threy at Raistlin.
Another point I do not believe anyone has considered is that Raistlin had the backing of Paladine throughout his quest - Paladine somewhere said (or someone said about him) could not resist the idea of destroying Takhisis even if it helped Raistlin achieve domination over the Abyss.
A note on Krynn's magic being less powerful - I do not think it was considering time travel was possible! I think that under the strict rules that governed magic it was far more difficult to learn the most powerful spell because they were reserved to the master of each Tower of High Sorcery...
Am I getting off topic? Oh well, I let someone else have the reigns now - perhaps someone who can comment on Elminster and Dalamar?
"No, my brother, where I go, you cannot follow..." - Raistlin. |
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Taelohn
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2004 : 08:06:53
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"We have also established that the same amount of experience is required to attain each level after 20 (actually its about 14th I believe)."
Well, I said it took the same amount of experience to reach level 20 (or any other given level; that was just an example) in Forgotten Realms as it does in Dragonlance, when asked if the XP systems were at all difference.
In 3rd Edition, it actually takes progressively more and more experience each time in order to level, and it never caps off. It's far harder to go from 31 to 32 than it is to go from 21 to 22, for instance.
"So, sure Raistlin had potential - also keep in mind Raisltin's advance occured over about 19 years given that he began using Magic when he was six years old... Anyway, at this rate of advancement Rasitlin would turn 35 years of age when he achieved 40th level."
As stated above, it begins to become harder and harder to level up the higher you get, so he wouldn't advance at the same rate forever.
Also, Raistlin's advancement was not at all linear. When he started studying magic (as documented in Soulforge), it took years and years before he could cast his first cantrip. Yet in between the time we last see him as a red robe, and when we first see him as a black robe, his power has suddendly sky-rocketed - he's just gained more levels there than in all his life prior.
"Of course we all know that Raistlin did make choices contrairy to both those scenerious - which proves only one thing - his heart was only two sizes too small!"
Were just a few instances in his life different, Raistlin could well have become a good-aligned person. That's part of what made his change interesting - a tragic character, in some ways.
"2. Dalamar said he "knew" that he could defeat Raistlin when he was weakened from battling Taksisis before he came through the portal (which means that Raistlin was holding his own against Takhisis for a while before luring her to the Prime Material). However, it is know that in the alternate timeline Raisltin did defeat Dalamar and win it all."
As I recall it, when Caramon was reading one of Astinus' books from the future, he learned that Dalamar would've been able to take advantage of the situation and defeat Raistlin - if Kitiara didn't kill him first. In this timeline, Dalamar survived (and mortally wounded Kitiara), however. In the timeline in which Raistlin fought and destroyed Takhisis, Kitiara must have also had been mortally wounded in the battle, Raistlin was able to defeat her as well, or she simply didn't try to interfere.
"Also, I think we can assume that Crysania was able to defeat the hordes Takhisis threy at Raistlin."
Crysania had already been burned at the stake (and declared no longer of any usefulness) when Raistlin went off to fight those hordes, though.
"Another point I do not believe anyone has considered is that Raistlin had the backing of Paladine throughout his quest"
That's true, though I don't know if Paladine ever directly interfered, save through Crysania. Paladine may well have had something to do with her willingness to help Raistlin, though. He did save Raistlin's soul right at the end, which was terribly nice of him, as being disemboweled all day certainly would be unpleasant.
"A note on Krynn's magic being less powerful - I do not think it was considering time travel was possible! I think that under the strict rules that governed magic it was far more difficult to learn the most powerful spell because they were reserved to the master of each Tower of High Sorcery..."
That's probably a more accurate way of putting it. It wasn't the magic itself, but how restricted the access to it was. They didn't have sorcerers in that age, which ruled out the chances of learning for yourself - and thus, everyone had to attend long and tedious schools for many years, which was enough to drive the poor or uneducated well away from the idea. Certain spells were known only by the highest-ranking wizards, and you had to pass the Test of High Sorcery just to become a decent wizard in the first place - which certainly served to weed out those who weren't serious about it.
"Oh well, I let someone else have the reigns now - perhaps someone who can comment on Elminster and Dalamar?"
Well, as mentioned earlier, the official stats are that Dalamar is 17th level, and Elminster is 35th level. (And again, going by the novels, El should be higher yet).
In one of the pieces I read, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, and Elminster were having dinner, in Elminster's tower. The Simbul dropped in, disguised as Dalamar's spoon - he swiftly noticed something was amiss when he detected the spoon as magical. He tried to blast it, but the spoon was unharmed. (He did, however, sufficiently defeat his lasaunga). Mordenkainen realized what was going on, and warned Dalamar not to try another killing spell, if he would live. Dalamar was angered, thinking this was a threat - but Mordenkainen calmly pointed out that the Simbul (who had now taken her normal form) could mostly likely beat any two of them at once, in a wide-open spell battle. The Simbul gave Dalamar a new spell, spoke with Elminster briefly, then left.
"Is every mage in Faerun more powerful than the Master of the Conclave?"
"No, lad. Just enough of 'em that ye dare not misbehave - good advice to any mage, come to think of it."
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Caramon the Great
Junior Member
USA
323 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2004 : 00:51:36
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Like stated earlier by Woogie, Dl is Not comparable to FR, the two are completely diferent. An lvl-40 in FR may be the equvalient of a leve 20 in Dl.
SImply put one can not compare on a technical level. Only those who read the books can comment.
In closing:Elminster would lose
"Trouble is only as deep as the one who births it" |
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Taelohn
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2004 : 02:13:01
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"Like stated earlier by Woogie, Dl is Not comparable to FR, the two are completely diferent. An lvl-40 in FR may be the equvalient of a leve 20 in Dl."
No, that is incorrect. He was asking whether or not that was the case, not stating it outright.
They both use the exact same game system. The experience system and level advancement systems are likewise identical.
A level 40 in Forgotten Realms is the exact equivalent of a level 40 in Dragonlance. A level 20 in Dragonlance is the exact equivalent of a level 20 in Forgotten Realms. And so on and so forth.
"SImply put one can not compare on a technical level. Only those who read the books can comment."
I've read every Raistlin novel (by Weis & Hickman), and every well as every Elminster novel.
I'm guessing you've read most of the Dragonlance ones, given that this is a Dragonlance forum - but have you read all the Elminster books, too? If not, that was a rather hypocritical statement.
"In closing:Elminster would lose"
Going by either game stats or novels (or both, as makes the most sense to do), that is not the case.
Edited by - Taelohn on 02/27/2004 19:11:04 |
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Rastlin Majere
New Member
USA
80 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2004 : 09:28:49
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iv never read any of the Elminster books, are they any good? iv read all the Weis and Hickmen novels. recommend a good FR book.
"I will do this. Nothing in my life matters except this. I am born in this moment, and if i fail, I will die this moment."
- Raistlin Majere |
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Taelohn
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2004 : 19:25:55
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If I had to choose, I'd say I prefer Chronicles/Legends, but the Elminster books are still rather good. A few are a little dry (though informative) at times, but Elminster is a funny guy, and he goes through some really amazing stuff. There's (currently) four books in that series, beginning with "The Making of a Mage" (his early life).
The Drizzt books (of which there are currently 16) by R.A. Salvatore are very popular, though I must confess I've not read all those yet.
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Goblin21x
Senior Member
USA
1452 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2004 : 23:12:40
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Taelohn and Darvick you guys are as long winded as I used to be on here :) im quite thrilled about that. Got some really good opinions on here also.
He who is destined to be an ogre |
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Darvick of Squal
Starting Member
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 04:08:35
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Thanks for the compliments!
I also think it's nice to see everyone adding constructive comments instead of ragging on each other, eh! (...yup, I'm Canadian...)
Anyway, I should note here that my experience with AD&D is almost exclusive to 2nd edition... That might make some of my statistical comments seem more reasonable. For example, my comment on level progression - where you pointed out it has changed dramatically since 3rd edition came out.
Good point about the majority of Raistlin's advancement occurring within a very short period. I should also add that his advancement, while he did not tend to favour the use of magical items, was a result of his close bond and control over the Dragon Orb as well as the Staff of Magius - which I understand he never learns the full potential of but also adds to its powers.
A Note regarding my last point - we should listen to "Caramon the Great" when he reminds us that the AD&D gaming system while tied to the novels of both realms is an interpretation of the books into gaming terms so that players can actually play and meet them.
That said we should examine the context with which each Novelist depicts the characters as well as the context with which each AD&D translation occurred.
(I admit I am not quite sure on this one - lol)
It could be said that because Raistlin and Dragonlance were actually created along side and in conjunction with AD&D that the writers have always depicted his levels in terms of those that could be played within the actual game modules.
I'm not so sure (here Taelohn could likely help us) that Elminster was actually meant to be a PC. I mean how many DM's ever give their characters the most powerful (or one of them at least) creature in the game?
This line of logic, if it holds true, suggests that the power level that the AD&D module designers gave the various characters should be view based on the intent of the game module designers - was Elminster meant to be a PC or a powerful NPC.
Players playing within my own campaign world often catch me associating 3rd level abilities with a friendly NPC, only to turn around and have the NPC sitting at 5th - simply, and I admit it, because the character is not a friendly anymore. In terms of the game mechanics this will always make sense as a PC party can easily break a story line by changing their minds... frustrating to anyone who puts much effort into their story lines (the very quality that I liked about Dragonlance AD&D campaign was that it had so rich a story line - the same could likely be said about Elminster's own realm...)
Hmm, so easy to float off topic :)
Anyway, as for Dalamar and Elminster comparison - that seems fair enough... Although, we should still keep in mind that while Dalamar's comment regarding the power of mages being higher in Faerun seems legitimate, Dalamar could very well have been manipulated or diseased by the others. (okay, maybe a bit of a stretch...lol)
In closing I would like to add that while each could be argued to win a battle against the other in various circumstances, that their actual statistics while used in any given world should be set at whatever levels and capabilities that make sense in order to challenge and not obliterate the PC's. Lets not forget that some times a DM (or module designer) requires a character (or angle/god) to push the PC's around to various degrees at times.
Well know NPC's are the best way to do this - case in point Raistlin was never really suppose to be touchable by the PC's in any later game modules - this could be accomplished (using existing maximum power levels - around 26th when the highest PC's could only be 20 (at least based on the available rules of the AD&D 2nd edition game at the time) Furthermore, I think that whatever level Elminster was attributed, likely satisfied the gaming environment of the day - truly his role seems to be more along the lines of a Hercules battling the other demi-gods day-to-day.
Opps, my time is up - I think we need buzzers on these things once we it 500 words or so...
"No, my brother, where I go, you cannot follow..." - Raistlin. |
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Taelohn
Starting Member
10 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 21:42:50
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"I'm not so sure (here Taelohn could likely help us) that Elminster was actually meant to be a PC. I mean how many DM's ever give their characters the most powerful (or one of them at least) creature in the game?"
Nope, not a PC.
"He was always my NPC sarcastic/sardonic give-of-exasperating-advice ... rather than a PC or a reliable party supporter ..."
- Ed Greenwood, creator of the Forgotten Realms.
And he wasn't overly powerful to begin with, remember - he worked up to that over the centuries.
"Elminster is all about love: loving people, and places, and a world so much that you'll sacrifice your own life doing any and all nasty and demeaning tasks to make everything better for everyone, no matter how much you get reviled for it."
- Ed, again.
"In closing I would like to add that while each could be argued to win a battle against the other in various circumstances, that their actual statistics while used in any given world should be set at whatever levels and capabilities that make sense in order to challenge and not obliterate the PC's. Lets not forget that some times a DM (or module designer) requires a character (or angle/god) to push the PC's around to various degrees at times."
The bit about challenging (without obliterating) the PCs is often not the case. If they attack a god, they will lose. If they attack an archdevil, they will lose. And there are some NPCs that are likewise too strong for 99% of the PCs out there.
To quote Ed again, this time in reference to the lich, Larloch:
"... All Player Characters have to learn sometime that there are folks in the Realms just too powerful to tangle with.
I'm reminded of the original Realms campaign, and the Company of Crazed Venturers attacking Shaan the Serpent-Queen (who briefly appeared in a Wizards Three DRAGON article). She was busy working magic on a small island off Mintarn. They attacked, broke her concentration, and she looked up with an irritated frown. They bid her stop, or they'd destroy what she was working on; to demonstrate, one of the Company mages touched (and disintegrated) a stone he was standing beside.
She shook her head in derision, and touched the island beneath them, disintegrating IT, and dumping the Company into the chilly sea waves for a long swim...whilst she turned back to her spellcasting, floating on nothing and ignoring them once more.
A heavy-handed lesson, but...well, Larloch's in the same league, and more. Just consider him a power of the Realms and Don't Go There."
Larloch is actually more powerful than Elminster, but much of the same comments could apply to the Old Mage.
"Well know NPC's are the best way to do this - case in point Raistlin was never really suppose to be touchable by the PC's in any later game modules - this could be accomplished (using existing maximum power levels - around 26th when the highest PC's could only be 20 (at least based on the available rules of the AD&D 2nd edition game at the time)"
Level 26 still sounds fine to me. All major D&D NPCs were transfered from 2E to 3E with the exact same level in their primary class (any additional classes were divided by 3 or so in the conversion). The actual classes themselves could be reworked a bit, though. For instance, in 2E, Elminster was a 29th level Mage, and also had a number of levels in Fighter, Rogue, and Cleric. They transfer that 29th caster level exactly (breaking it into Wizard-24/Archmage-5), but divided down the number of other levels he had (though I still think his cleric levels are too low now).
"Furthermore, I think that whatever level Elminster was attributed, likely satisfied the gaming environment of the day - truly his role seems to be more along the lines of a Hercules battling the other demi-gods day-to-day."
Sometimes, but he was more often used in an advice-giving mode;
"Ye mean after all this ye're not going to kiss her now, lad? Be bold! Be brave! Be HEROIC! Or shall I just speak into HER ear, instead? Hmmmmm?"
"Well, HERE'S another fine mess ye've gotten thyselves into, eh? If ye'd found the secret door three rooms back ye'd have been fine, but as 'tis, I'm very much afraid ye're all just going to....die."
Raistlin, in comparison, would probably not be used as an NPC at all, assuming one's campaign was set after (and wouldn't interfere with) the events of Chronicles/Legends. Although, if he's already dead, he too could serve as a "voice in the head", giving advice - if he had a reason to, at least.
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Raistlin vs. Elminster
